tv The Dylan Ratigan Show MSNBC February 21, 2011 4:00pm-5:00pm EST
good afternoon to you from burbank, california. we start with breaking news out of libya. the death toll rising as government loyalists attack protesters. moammar gadhafi releasing fighter jets on demonstrators in his own country. civilian protesters have been attacked with live ammo. gadhafi supporters racing through tripoli's green square doing so in trucks while firing automatic weapons with live rounds at opposition members. libya's second largest city, benghazi, now under opposition control. and just hours ago libyan pilots reportedly defecting to malta because according to them they were ordered to bomb protesters in country. their refusal expressed by their
defection. here with more nbc's jim maceda in london. >> those are two mig jets flown by libyan pilots who were given orders to bomb protesters in benghazi in an effort to take control back from libya's second largest city from protesters that had taken control the night before. now these two pi lots as you can see here landed in malta, that island state off the coast of italy and sicily with they requested asylum. others were given orders to fire around the capital of tripoli. they carried them out and fired on crowds of protesters. this particular defection here is a dramatic sign that the regime if not beginning to collapse is beginning to crack. it doesn't mean there won't be more violence in libya.
gadhafi's three sons are effectively in charge of a counter revolution in libya. in the east, one son is commanding a special military unit. seif gadhafi in that rambling speech has promised on state television there would be a bloodbath a civil war as you alluded to in your lead and that every man who wo fight to the last man. that may now be not enough. we're told by experts and analysts here that the next 48 hours could be critical ones for gadhafi and libya. >> thank you for the reporting. with us to discuss libya's revolution and once again a conversation we're getting familiar with, america's relationship with this region, the host of the majority report, sam seeder. from the "washington examiner" tim carney. and news week mickey kous. give me any sense that you have of the u.s. relationship now as
they observe the events oust libya. >> this is unusual in that libya was not our ally unlike egypt. we don't have much control over the events. what's become clear is whether we like it or not this wave of revolution is coming and all the talk about should we have squelched it is ridiculous. >> what's the risk to the region of an incredibly bloody series of events in libya with no sign that it's about to abate. >> the risk is that somehow the islamists will get control in some of these areas. libya is less of a threat. egypt being the big one. saudi arabia, yemen is a huge problem. bahrain where our navy is based an even bigger problem. so, libya is the most dramatic example but not the most threatening. >> sam, not that long ago the uk government did a deal with libya
in which they released the lockerbee bomber in access to libya's oil fields. while the u.s. may not be a libyan ally the united kingdom is an ally and buyer ever libyan energy sources to the extent to which they are willing to release convicted terrorists. is there anything or anyone that you're aware of that has leverage here? is there leverage that's worth having here? >> no. i don't frankly think that this is -- there's really much of a role for the twoeft play at this point. i mean this is what the libyan people want, and, you know, we're already seeing it where their military is falling apart, depending on their local allegiances. benghazi was a situation where the military from benghazi was ordered to fire on their own people. they refused to. many of them ended up being killed. so, no, i don't think that this is a situation where we certainly don't want to be in any way aligned with the gadhafi
regime, and i just don't know what role there is for us to play other than to scene our best wishes. >> tim carney, as you watch all of this unfold, from a western perspective setting libya aside for a second as they are basically the story of these few days, where do you view the american policy, the right and the left as they try to cultivate some sort of way to deal with what's obviously going to be months if not years of tremendous change in the middle east? >> well, the lesson for me today on george washington's birthday entangling alliances get messy. where we have these allegiances to dictators and they are falling. bad things could happen. there could be anti-american regimes coming in. on the other hand we aren't going to root against the democratic uprising.
so on the right it's very interesting where there are some people who supported the iraq war which i did not but saying is that domino theory. after we knocked down the dick tay towards in iraq and afghanistan now they are falling elsewhere. >> if you were to look at the broadest implications of this, mickey, are we -- is america at a junk tur thcture? >> we sucked up to these dictators and it's not realistic. we need a new policy where we try to channel the forces of the good forces of democracy and hope that they win titans lammists don't win and that's the challenge now. >> what would you consider the plan in beginning the conversation framing american foreign policy from this point forward? >> the key point is associating ourselves with the good people who are revolts who want to participate in the global economy. america has suffered with the
global economy for decades. this is the payoff. foreigners want to participate. they want ipods. they want to be part of the great bounty of global commerce. we want to support them. we want to act against advertise l -- the islamists. >> the most extreme would say no involvement is the best involvement. i talked to ron paul the day before egypt fell. he said listen, get out, stay out, remain out. what is your view of the right's perspective on american foreign policy right now? >> well, first of all, i think i probably agree with ron paul on that point and some people say that's isolationism. it's not isolationism. i still want, you know, people who have businesses over here to buy things, to sell things over to, you know, bahrain and i want to be able to buy bahrain food. it's not isolationism saying our
government shouldn't play a role. as far as on the right that puts me in the minority view where there are some people who say these revolutions are going to be bad for us. and whether they are advocating any intervention on behalf of the dictators, i haven't heard anybody say that. >> the problem is the good guys never have guns. adverti the islamists will have guns. we have to have guys who have power that show up on our side. we might need to cold some military elements who are willing to usher in democracy. >> any way to get guns to the "good guys"? >> to the extent that guns are in the hands of the bad guys we sold a lot of them to them. you know, it was our guns that were killing the protesters in egypt. it was our cans of tear gas that were being fired on. it was our planes that mubarak
ordered to fire on his own people. and frankly the military just said no. >> again, the pandora's box is all wide open. we get the task of navigating. stay with me on this president's day. coming up here on "the dylan ratigan show" on msnbc we turn our attention from the pandora's box that's the middle east to the political fight and pandora's box that is american revenue collapsing, pension liability expanding and the battle for the soul of america when it comes to dealing with our retirement system and our government. we're back after this. i needed a coach. our doctor was great, but with so many tough decisions i felt lost. unitedhealthcare offered us a specially trained rn who helped us weigh and understand all our options. for me cancer was as scary as a fastball is to some of these kids. but my coach had hit that pitch before.
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all right. welcome back. little good news, little bad news. the bad news is america as we all know is sitting on a ticking time bomb that's a combination of collapsing state revenues and rising state debts. both lines are going in the wrong direction. the good news, people are finally starting to look at what we might be able to do about it, at the very least the debate has begun sparked by that political showdown in wisconsin. demonstrators zendescending on capital to protest a republican bill that would wipe out the union's collective bargaining rights for most public workers. democrats and union leaders say that has nothing to do with the budget, that's collective bargaining rights. gop governor scott walker
disagrees. >> this is our chance to stand up and help our local governments balance their budgets because collective bargaining costs money and they need changes to balance their budget. >> walker's bill goes too far. this bill denies workers rights and that has nothing to do with this budget. >> this governor of wisconsin snopt sis not setting out the fix a budget he's setting out the break a union. >> democratic state senators remain on the run in illinois. refusing to come back in a bid to stop a vote on this bill. i do want to get out to wisconsin. scott newell is live in madison with the latest. what can you tell us of the day's events. >> reporter: the protesters are again out here by the thousands and the weather is absolutely lousy today, not quite as bad as it was yesterday. yesterday we had a lot of snow, freezing rain, rain, you name it and most of the people stayed
inside. today they are outside again. and tom moreello had a big land. they were singing "this land is your land." inside the protesters continue with their fervor. they are fashion natural about opposing this bill and making sure that governor walker gets the message. earlier today as you mentioned governor walker said look this is a short term fix it's not going. but the unions over the weekend made concessions they said we'll take the financial concessions, pay into our health insurance but please don't touch our right to be members of a union and bargain. the governor, though, at 5:00 central time is planning on some sort avenues conference today. we don't know what he'll say but we'll be there to cover it. dylan. >> thank you, scott so much. the biggest question, course, is what's driving all of this and not just the liabilities, but the revenue collapse and not just in wisconsin, but at nearly
every state in america. few things have come together, wisconsin in their case have a quarter billion in unfunded liabilities in their pension and believe it or not as state pensions go that's pretty good compared to the rest of the country. collectively the 50 american states have $3 trillion in pension liabilities, with america's towns and cities adding another $500 billion on top of that. how do we get here? by my view and you look at the math that backs it up, wisconsin like most states got hit with a triple whammy coming through and culminating in the financial crisis. understand where the revenue comes from. house prices which have plummeted, people working, unemployment has speck, you put those two things together and tax revenues drop. that's just the wisconsin numbers. at the same time years of false promises, dubious malt and
sketchy investment from the pension managers finally catching up with them. in order to cover unrealistic promises to teachers and other public sector employees, fund managers were buying into highly risky securities, remember those cdo's with the really high yields. they were rated aaa by the rating agencies. that gave the bankers the leverage to say if you don't bail us out we'll wipe out every pension in america. well why were the pension managers buying those high risk securities? was it because they were trying to keep up with the free spending politicians who were looking to their pension managers to get 20, 10, 15% returns on some investments that were actually worthless mortgages. but when people couldn't pay their bills, guess who was the
one who owned the bills, your pension. not a pretty picture. and now our teachers, our firefighters and so many others are facing a future without the retirement they've been promised. meanwhile the banks continue to charge in wisconsin's case a 15% fee out of the overall pensions and continue to be able to sell these types of aaa rated securities. you see why bank reform was such a big deal? and now they take it out on the teachers? joining us now is hank kim, executive director of the national conference on public employee retirement systems. mr. kim, i guess my biggest question to you is should the pension managers be held to much more accountability than they are for buying into these high risk securities being pedled by wall street? >> dylan thank you for having
me. happy president's day. first i need to clarify some misconceptions out there. you mentioned that public plans, public pension plans were under-funded by $3 trillion. that's actually not the case. in fact, public pensions are pre-funded. they have enough cash on hand at this moment in the amount of $2.7 trillion. so contrary to sort of your lead in, i think public pension plans as a whole and the pension plan in wisconsin specifically are in very good shape considering where we are. >> that may be the case, hank. that number i quoted was from the kellogg school of management. these numbers are so big that my bet is i could come up with 15 credible source that explain how under water we are. you could come up with 15 credible source that would explain how not under water we are. we could use five minutes of msnbc's air time and get nowhere, or we could talk about the practice of the pension
managers in general and the projected revenues at pensions period that are then harvested by politicians in order for them to give tax cuts and all the other things and address what i view as a fairly screwed up relationship between the political leaders, the pension managers and the wall street banks. are your up for that? >> dylan, i'm very much up for that. you're right. >> so let's look at that triangle then which is a politician that wants to cut taxes and giveaway benefits. a pension manager that wants to live up to that expectation. and becomes what they call on wall street a yield hog, somebody who is looking to get a little extra juice which is a nice target for somebody on wall street selling fraudulent mortgage paper and charging high fees. how do we address the underlying issue which is that triangle between the banks, pension managers and politicians as opposed to doing what the democrats want to do is print
more money or republicans want to take it out on the teachers. >> dylan, in terms of pension fund managers, the money managers for spicketor pension plans on the whole have done very well and that's largely due to the fact that public plans are well diversified. a typical public pension plan has 60% in equities, 35% in fixed debt and 5% in terms which includes the high risk cdo's, et cetera that you pensioned earlier. to the extent that public plans were victims of the cd0 and those other public financing cd0s were not that big of a victim. the plummeting of the markets affected us more than our investments in any much these elaborate schemes.
but to talk about sort of the relationship between the politician and the pension funds you're absolutely right. there have been classic examples where politicians have actually dipped into the pension funds for their own purposes, and to gain political advantage. case in point is new jersey during the '90s when governor christy todd whitman borrowed from the pension plan to finance her tax breaks to the citizens of new jersey. another classic example is the state of illinois, the state has not made a full contribution to the pension system in over 40 years. that's more of an issue i think where states and the politicians fail to live up to their obligations rather than some of the risky investments that fund managers may be engaged in. >> listen, hank, thank you so much for the conversation. hank kim executive director at the national conference on
public employee retirement. tim, it seems like a pretty vicious cocktail, free spending politicians utilizing account g i ing shenanigans. >> i think to complete the picture you also have to explain how the public employee unions are funneling money to one party -- >> the politicians. >> yeah. part democratic politicians to get them elected and so then again when they are sitting at the table and giving out the money it's not their money they are giving out, they are giving more money to the unions that then send more money to elect them. it's another case of special interests, this is one reason why we free market conservative types say get rid of the high place. once you have all this money
playing with money that's not their own corruption will happen. >> sam, do you agree? >> no. i'll tell use. we know that state workers in wisconsin make be -- if you hold education and include pension and health care and you look across the board they are getting up to at least 5% less than they would get in the private-sector. so this isn't a question of public unions in any way abusing the system. this is a question of a governor who wants to giveaway tax cuts, and a movement in this country by corporations and by frankly bureaucrats talking about we need shared sacrifice but they get tax cut after tax cut. we're paying the lowest amount of taxes in this country as a nation as we have in 50, 60 years. and so we have a situation where, you know, the idea that a state or a country would default
is the height of fiscal irresponsibility. but when it comes to defaulting on promises they need their employees that's fiscal responsibility. it's ridiculous. >> sam, of course it's a case of the unions abusing the system. in the public sector you can't get fired. in the l.a. school system, seven teachers got fired over a whole decade. they get a lot of job security and get as much or more pay than most private-sector workers. >> that's not true. >> this is not about wisconsin. >> if you want to talk about how people are hired and fired. that's one conversation. it's a lie. >> the unions establish the way people are hired and fired. that's why we want to question the whole idea of spickunions. >> in wisconsin the number three
donor to the 2010 election was a wisconsin education association, the teachers union. their main job is to try to kill school choice in milwaukee, okay. the students are fleeing the public schools in milwaukee so much that they started passing bills -- >> got it. >> to try to cap number of students taking the vouchers. >> wisconsin is number two in the country of s.a.t. and a.c. t. scores in the country. in five of the lowest rated education scores and s.a.t. and a.c.t. in the country are from states that have no collective bargaining with their teachers. >> may i suggest a crazy idea here. we are subsidizing by the trillion a banking system that's gouging our country. we pay twice what we should be paying for health care because of employer based health insurance monopolies and fee for service health care. those health care costs are passed on to all of us. would we not be having a much
more beneficial conversation if we were willing to deal with the systemic corruption that is the health care system that costs us double what it should and a banking system that neither -- not only does it not invest in our country but seeks to poach two are the most vulnerable for a yield. i'll make that the last word because my name is on the door and i can. you made for a heck of a conversation. mickey nice to see you here in person imf and sam also a pleasure to see you. still ahead here some moms and dads here in california taking over some of those failing schools. the parents say it's good for their kids. it's called the parent trigger. a little more on the idea and a question we've been asking every monday now for a little while. is it good for america? our good for america segment still to come. but first a birthday surprise for nascar's youngest star.
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today's events if you could channel mr. roosevelt? >> first of all thank you for having me on. he would love today's action. teddy was a man of action. he loved to get into the middle of the arena. i think he would look at the economy and jump head first into that and create jobs. he would look at world affairs and get involved. he was the first president that conceded america as a super power. that's why he created the panama canal. he would relish this and jump in with both feet. >> one thing and the reason i like teddy as much as i do at this particular point in time is he came to power at a point when there was tremendous change in america, the industrial revolution, lots of advance resulting from that and tremendous consolidation of wealth and power that was resulting in incredible unfair domestic and wealth extraction in this country. and he obviously set out to
address that as a reforming republican. i believe we find ourselves now again tremendous change. the digital revolution and again second lie dated wealth and power. is it too simplistic to think he would deal with the newly found consolidated wealth and power in our government the way he did back then? >> no. i don't think it is too simplistic. it's a great analogy. what made teddy roosevelt special he was not inflexible. he was willing at times to buck his own party. in fact it created a lot of friction. he was happy to buck it if he thought it was right. edit on conservation and trust busting. there's a lesson to be learn from teddy. don't put ideology ahead of doing what's right. i think that's what made him special. i think that's why we still look back at him with a certain fondness. he wasn't afraid of taking on anybody. >> he was also known for offering the so-called square deal. basically to try to give
everybody a fair shake and i would argue that was one of the most lacking things right now in america is a square deal where you watch bill daly the new chief of staff taking $9 million paycheck out of jpmorgan while you watch teachers taking a $24,000 pension being asked to take yet another hair cut. how would teddy deal with the unfairness that is so persuasive in our country. >> he was a trust buster. he did not believe in concentrated powers. you mentioned the rockefellers and others. he was not afraid to go after those in his own party then the industrialists of the day to create a fair, flatter more equitable system. that along with the panama canal, i argue the panama canal is his great legacy. i certainly think we can look back to him and sort of see an example of how to govern and put ideology second and doing what's
right first. >> how do you think this has developed whether on the democratic side or republican side where the simple politician, the simple sort of grassroots guy who says listen i'll give you a square deal and i'll hold the big fat rich guy as much to account as i am the pension, the union guy who is taking the pension for a ride. >> well, you know, teddy created the idea of the bully pulpit. he believed the power of the presidency. in fact one could northern the modern presidency was created by teddy roosevelt. he was not afraid to go outside of the political system, using the pulpit and going the people much like reagan and others have. he would look at those issues you described and go right to the people and create a popular consensus to enforce and back up what he wanted to do. he knew,000 connect with people and use the power of the bully pulpit to make the change he wanted to see. >> what do you think -- our current president, president obama could learn about teddy roosevelt, the bully pulpit and
the idea of a square deal? >> he could learn a couple of things. one be decisive. teddy roosevelt was decisive. he said let congress debate it, i'll build the canal. he also believed in acting first and asking for forgiveness later. he was very decisive. also thoughtful and flexible in his thinking. people overlook that. he wrote a bunch of books. well received books. very thoughtful like our current president. he thought about what he was going do and then used the bully pulpit to go right to the people and make the change he wanted to see. he's up there with franklin roosevelt and washington and lincoln as one of the top four presidents. >> "presidential leadership." the author is right here. nick it's a pleasure to have you. there's the cover of the book. happy president's day to you. >> thank you. the best of all holidays. thank you. >> thank you. we'll take the spirit of teddy
roosevelt as we have so directly with this show. we're going to take it this week when we head for the west for the third leg of our steel on wheels campaign looking to build a jobs movement in this country and investing and educating ourselves and to you the issues that are a bar toirt. the focus this time building or rebuilding america and we start wednesday in seattle going a new corps steel plant talking about manufacturing in the united states. also with folks at boeing, incredible efficiency in a startlingly intense industrial environment. you won't believe how little exhaust and how much recycling exists in a world that hooks like the videotape you're looking at right now. when we leave seattle we're off to the port of oakland on thursday where we turn our attention directly squarely on trade, broadcasting live from the port of oakland and discussing this nation's monstrous trade imbalance with china. so many dollars flying out of
our country and too few dollars coming into it and then friday wrapping things up at the hoover dam. once upon a time as we all know we together built great things in this country that solved our problems and created jobs. can we do it again? steel on wheels back wednesday right here on the dr show. just ahead today from burbank, should parents take over failing schools? the so-called parent trigger. we'll look at a controversial new law in california and a law that could be good for america.
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which is a true american value for people with diabetes like me. [ male announcer ] accu-chek aviva. born in the usa. we are back with a provocative new question, the education debate. if a school is failing, should the parents have the right to petition and take over? sounds like a good idea to me. certainly a hot topic here in california where last year 188 failing schools in california were targeted for reform or shut down. a new law giving parents the power to force change if a school is failing. it's something our friends at good have been following quite closely and good magazine's publisher joins us with more. the little i know of it sounds
rather controversial and perhaps like a darn good idea. how does this work? >> extremely controversial. a lot of parties involved. the union. state government. district. parents. teachers. certainly the taxpayers whose money is at the heart of this thing. so you have a number of parents who are getting together and trying to take over their school and move to it a charter. and they are doing that because the school hasn't met the standards that the state has put in place than new bill allows home to pull the parent trigger. it's quite fascinating. >> what's necessary? if we want to invoke the parent trigger what's the necessary threshold. >> signatures of the parents a majority of the parents. it's being contested now by the school whether those signatures are valid. and that's obviously a pretty heated rhetoric. there's a lot of rhetoric going both ways and it's going to be exciting to dig into people who are at the center of this discussion to figure out exactly where they are at. >> has anybody done this? >> no this is the first school that took advantage of this new
amendment that the california board passed in pursuit to trees to the top money. it's exciting to see whether it plays out. they are trying to mend a system that didn't delivering the results they need. >> i want to bring in a couple of folks who are directly affect go ahead by what we're discussing and fighting in the process to improve the schools here in southern california and not just in southern california but where the schools have suffered the most. compton, the first place to see the parent trigger law used. ben austin is the executive director of parent revolution. it's a group that helps organize parents to do this sort of thing. and shamika murphy. her children attend school in compton. what are your thoughts on the possibility of a parent triggered reform movement in compton? >> i'm very excited about it. and i'm happy that this is happening because i want to see my children get a better education. so i'm very excited about it.
>> and ben, how would this work? >> well, first of all to give you a scene of what this is all about. we don't see this just as a new law. we see this as a new paradigm. a new way of thinking about education and education reform. it's not about charters or district schools or unions or reformers, but it's simply about accenting the profound fact our schools are failing because they are not designed to succeed. they don't serve kids because they are not designed to. they are designed to serve grown ups. her child is literally 50 times more likely to dropout than to go to college and that the only way we're going to change things is to effect a radical transfer of raw power of defenders of power to shamika. >> go ahead, ben. >> my question for you there is,
what happens if this goes through what is shamika going to do with that power and what is the future of his education going to look like? >> in mckinley a high quality charter operator that i would send my own daughters send to would take over, run the school, serve the same attendance boundary, serve the kids. this is not about charter schools. this is about giving parents power. charter schools are not scaleable. there just aren't enough. so what this is about is about giving parents like shamika power to bargain and be treated like a teachers union to advocate for her own children. >> the question is who decides -- it's obvious -- it's not obvious, you can assess a failing school and a parent that can reach certain threshold of
failure where you want to invoke this parent trigger. what's not clear is what happens next. in other words who gets to pick what the new management or the new system is after the shareholders as i see them which is the parents take over the failing business in this case the failing school. >> shamika, that question was for you. what i would say is that, you know, parents don't know how to run a school nor should they. as a dad i'm not a medical doctor but i know,000 pick a pediatrician for my daughters, i know whether they are getting good medical care or not. same with schools. >> get it. but nobody is answering my question is -- >> the people may have questions
about them but this is not the wild west. ben, what do you see as the reaction you're getting. why is there so much heated rhetoric around this? why aren't people like dylan saying great shareholders are standing up. let's get behind it. >> so, you were question gets to the fundamental issue. this is not about kids. it's not about social justice. it's about power. the defenders of the status quo, the special interest and the bureaucrats benefit from the status quo. the only people who don't benefit are the parents, the kids and all the rest of us. so, the reason we're getting so much push back is because people are losing power, people are gaining power and in this case the parents are gaining power to advocate for the education, the future much their own children. >> well it sounds like a sensational idea to me and it surely sound like it's good for america. in keeping with what ben and our partnership is setting out to
do, shamika thank you so much. ben austin, you think this is good for america? >> challenging the status quo especially when its not working good for america snipe agree. be well you guys and do keep us posted as it goes. you can check out ben and morley his products on a variety of platforms good as the magazine, digital web, you pick it. it's worth a look. can you learn more about the parent trigger there. coming up on "hardball", chris matthews talking to one of wisconsin's democratic state senators on the lam in an undisclosed location. makes for good tv, right? but first republican budget cuts and short term thinking, daily rant from kelly goff right after this. four decadent flavors. 60 calories. it's me o'clock -- time for jell-o. ♪ [ upbeat instrumental ] four decadent flavors. 60 cal[ rattling ]
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we're back with the daily rant from kelly goff. talk about who likes to save money in washington. take it away. >> for as far backs i can remember the gop brand has been one much fiscal responsibility with republicans casting themselves as the grownups while misguide liberals spend like drunken sailors. when republicans gained control of the house, their rallying cry was like mom and dad were out of town and you used our credit cards. imagine my surprise that conservatives like spend money. they like to spend money on health care and other benefits for middle class and low-income people. how do i know? republicans are trying their best to thwart programs that safe taxpayers in the long run. here's what i mean. obesity cost america $270 billion a year in lost
productivity and increased medical cost and cost taxpayers money directly. last week when first lady michelle obama encouraged more mothers to breastfeed conservatives pounced. gop firebrand michelle bachmann and sarah palin all attacked despite the fact that they breast fed their own children np stead of seeing obama's call for action what it is, they argued it was further proof of the nanny state. around the same time house republicans voted to defund planned parenthood. the bulk of the group's work family planning and birth control which consistents of ensuring as few americans as possible ever find themselves in a situation of contemplating an abortion. family planning ensures less americans create families they
can't support. i want helps ensure americans don't create families that taxpayers end up supporting. in fact if i remember correctly welfare reform was one of the few measures of the clinton presidency conservatives cheered on. i guess just like the clinton administration, the facade of conservatives is fiscally responsible is a relic of the '90s. maybe they got tired of playing grownups and decided they wanted to party like drunk engineer sailors. dylan? >> when you look at these problems we talked about this with the pensions, to me it seems the democrats want to brother money to make all these problems to sort of continue without being really addressed, expensive health care. and the republicans basically want to take it out on the most vulnerable and not deal with the banks, not deal with the unde